Nigerians Should Understand We Have Effective State Capture Under Tinubu – Sani

Yabagi Sani is the national chairman of the Action Democratic Party (ADP). In this interview, he speaks on the gale of defection to the All Progressives Congress (APC), accusing the ruling party of engaging in state capture. The immediate past chairman of Inter-Party Advisory Council (IPAC) also warned that President Bola Tinubu shouldn’t allow Nigeria’s democracy to die, among other issues.

JOY ANIGBOGU brings the excerpts: On issues around the gale of defec­tions to APC. What’s your view and is this what preparations for elections are usually like where you want to grab anybody that you can grab or lure anyone who’s willing to be lured? Well, it’s not anything surpris­ing because when you have a situ­ation where people have captured the state. State capture means all the institutions that composed what you call democratic struc­tures.



Once you’re able to capture all of them, then there’s no lon­ger a space for any other party or any other person outside your own compliance. In this case, the political party that you represent and I’m talking about APC. If you look at the way our constitution, which is the grand norm, is struc­tured and the electoral law itself, you will discover that opposition parties in Nigeria, it’s a very diffi­cult effort for anybody who wants to really manage a political party or contest elections against some­body who, like I said, has captured the state.

Why do I say state cap­ture? When you look at institu­tions that will declare you, even if you have won, as when the people have given you their votes, their votes are not enough. It doesn’t stop there. You have agencies of the government that will now say, yes, you’re the one that has been elected.

So, in an event where you have all these agencies, not a sin­gle one, is outside the control of your opponent, you are in trouble. We have an independent National Electoral Commission (INEC), for example, and then the judicial arm of government..

. But how independent is INEC? We all know what is obtained in the country. It’s an institution that should be independent but is it so? If you had some of these top shots defecting to the ADP, wouldn’t you have said that democracy is working, things are going well, you commend Nigerians and all of that like you po­litical parties and politicians usually say? Yes, I agree, but we won’t use EFCC to intimidate anybody.

We won’t quietly call them that, you have this issue, which we can use against you, but why don’t we collaborate and then see how we can move this country forward. Like in the case of Delta, we’re all aware Okowa was facing EFCC, and perhaps we don’t know what the governor also was going to do, and others, who they say are on their way to APC. Our parties won’t use that.

We won’t use co­ercion. Are you saying that the APC should feel ashamed accepting people who are defecting to the party who have cases with anti-graft agencies? Yes, exactly. But look at it.

No, it is. It’s a shameful act done in the open, with no regard to what anybody may think. Well, that’s for political parties that subscribe to higher ideals.

.. Yes, that’s what I’m saying, but we must subscribe to higher ideals.

That’s the call to service. It’s not for you to come and then use whatever means, like the un­justified means. It’s unfortunate that this is happening under the watch of Bola Tinubu, who in the past, we thought he’s a democrat, a thoroughbred democrat that we believe will come and then change the scenario that we had before.

We could forgive President Mohamed Buhari because of his background, right? You can’t sep­arate him from the background he’s coming from. But Bola Tinu­bu grew through the ranks to become who he is today. So, one would have thought that he would do everything to ensure that this system is entrenched, the roots of democracy are entrenched in the largest economy or the big­gest country of Africa.

But look at what is happening. It’s the com­plete opposite that is happening, as if it’s not Bola Ahmed Tinubu that is on the saddle. So this is why I’m saying what is happen­ing in this country is a shameful thing that is happening.

How will Bola Tinubu, who was a senator before, agree to violate our consti­tution just to grab power? People will say that they’ve not violated any constitution. Maybe these things fall within the realms of morality. Of course, you and I know that politics has morality.

How can ev­erybody be saying no? Only you and the APC say, we are right. That’s not the kind of system we want to operate. And I think it is not too late for Bola Ahmed Tinubu to change and build this democracy for us.

Let’s talk about this coalition that’s been built up to challenge the APC. I mean, the presidency is just laughing at Atiku Abubakar and El-rufai and all of them. You have been in the game for quite some time.

I don’t know if the ADP has been approached. Do you think that if all the opposition po­litical parties come together, whether coalition or alliance, they can defeat the APC and stop what you started with by saying state capture by the APC? Is there a possibility? Well, there’s nothing that is im­possible. And politics is about im­possibilities, if you look at it.

But again, you have to be realistic for you to really be able to convince other people. Because, you see, the proponents of this coalition that you are talking about, even the message is not a relatable message. I mean, the citizens of Nigeria cannot even relate to the messages there because there are so many different messages.

You see somebody today who stood up in the National Assembly to become the minister and was de­nied, and today he’s doing a coali­tion against where he wanted to serve as the minister. Or you see somebody today who, in fact, brought a whole party to its knees for his own interest and is now coming down to say he wants to form a coalition. And the fact of the matter is that we must not lose sight of what this country is.

We have what, unfortunately, are sub­jugated forces in our political space. What are they? There are three primor­dial sentiments. The regional politics which we have, the ethnicity politics, and the religious politics which we have.

You ignore them at your peril, especially at the national level. You want to contest the president of this country. And you don’t want to look at the issue of region.

For which region am I? We have an unwrit­ten understanding or agreement amongst Nigerians. Unfortunately, we boxed our­selves to that corner where we now see there is a rotation in the presidency of this country. That the North will have it for 8 years, in accordance with the con­stitution, if you are elected again.

And then the South will have it for 8 years. And then when the North has done its 8 years under President Mohamed Bu­hari, unbroken, and then you now come to the South and you say the South cannot enjoy the 8 years. You now want to fight them as Northern bloc, or as whichever bloc you want to call it.

Like some people will say lazily that it’s a contest between Tinubu and Nige­rians. It’s not. It’s a contest between the North and the South.

And the fact of the matter is that there is that consensus that this ruling has been accepted because it has worked against those who tried to stop it. Was broken in 2013. Between 2013 and 2015.

But why did Jonathan lose? Because a new party was formed in 2013, by 2015. It was broken because what Jonathan wanted to do, amounted to a third term. Well, there was that controversy.

.. He could not maneuver his way through those institutions because the entrenchment of these sentiments is stronger.

He had the two years of Yar adua and contested and won. He again contested in 2015 because he wanted to have 10 years. So, the people said, no, that it would run against the grace that was given to him.

That was why in spite of the fact that Jonathan had what we call power of incumbency, he couldn’t ma­neuver his way through because of the entrenchment of these sentiments. So, what happens is you are also agreeing with those who have said that President Tinubu should actually just, out of sentiment for that agreement, just be allowed to do another term. He shouldn’t be just allowed.

We should challenge him as an opposing party. Well, if you do that, then you will be challeng­ing that norm of having 8 years. Just like the North enjoyed it.

But the fact of the matter is that this is politics, isn’t it? And we can have it on-going. But the reality of the matter is that there is no way you can remove Tinubu 2027 because of our own unwrit­ten agreement as a nation. Others are also warning them that, look, if you defect, the people may not go with you, even though the presidency is with you.

But the APC’s scribe is actually denying that intimidation tactics are being used, like you have said. Are you convinced with some of these explanations about the APC’s crime? Well, I think if you look at the immedi­ate experience, the past elections experi­ence, it will tell you that there’s a lot that happens under the table, between this government, as you have mentioned, and the APC. I’m sure you have not forgotten how NNPP and Kano managed to keep the victory which people gave to them.

I mean, it was a tug of war, like you have mentioned. Well, that’s what the governor also com­mended President Tinubu for, in court, subscribing to the rule of law by not allowing certain things to happen. Well, yes, of course.

You look at the one in Plateau State, all the opposition parties that had one problem or the other went to court. There had to be, there was some kind of understanding. You know why? Come back to the issue of state capture.

You know, today, our judiciary is APC. Well, that’s an allegation. The Judiciary has said that it’s not.

Judiciary was appointed by APC, by the Federal Government. Bola Tinubu, who is the one I know. By the Federal Government.

Well, I mean, the Federal Government must be led by someone. Well, fortunately or unfortunately, to­day, it’s led by President Bola Tinubu, and he appointed a Yoruba person to become the Chief Justice of the Federation. We’ve had those kinds of incidents happening before.

I’m talking about Buhari, who also has someone from the north. I mean, just to keep things in proper balance. I told him the same thing.

I said the state capture happened before Bola Tinubu. I’m not saying that he’s the one that created the scenario, but this is what is happening today. We have to say it as it is, because that’s how it is.

So, num­ber two, the National Assembly is also APC. In the majority, it’s APC National Assembly, and even the principal officers that are there were hand-picked by Bola Tinubu. We talk about the Speaker, we talk about the State President, we talk about all the rest.

They were hand-picked by the man that is in the saddle. So, you have a kind of system of gov­ernment in Nigeria, which supposedly, according to the intention of the con­stitution, is supposed to sit on a tripod stand, independent, that was the inten­tion. So that Nigerians will enjoy what is called democracy.

Checks and balances will be there. Today, checks and balances are absent. And no wonder, the president you have today, before you can become the head of any agency that is of note, you have to be a member.

Well, it’s because your opposition parties also seem to have been asleep. It’s not the opposition parties. Well, when the APC was in opposition, you knew how they put the PDP-led Federal Government under tension.

People like Lai Muhammad, how come the opposition is not doing the same to the APC-led Federal Gov­ernment? That’s what we are doing today, as we are speaking to you. Let Nigerians un­derstand that we have an effective state capture under Bola Tinubu which is un­fortunate. So, the issue is that if care is not taken, we may lose our democracy.

With the way we play politics in Nigeria, a lot of people are beginning to be concerned, includ­ing top leaders of Nigeria’s former governing party, the PDP. Bukola Saraki former president of the senate, former governor of Kwara state, said that we have never fallen so low like this, that a vice-presidential candidate of a party would defect alongside his governor to a gov­erning party. And people wonder, what exactly, then, can we do to get out of this? I don’t agree with that.

Because you just mentioned PDP. In 2013, Bukola Sara­ki was the man behind the new PDP that was formed, which was headed by Kawu Baraji. So that is the beginning of the end of PDP.

So then, his governor was among the about seven governors that left PDP for APC. Those who didn’t leave, worked against Jonathan. So today, they are now crying, lamenting that the governor is leaving PDP for APC.

So I have no sympa­thy for that. He created this scenario. He’s paying for his sins.

Wike will also regret what he did to PDP in the future. Because you cannot undermine, you know, your own structure and expect that you will go scot-free. There have been talks that the APC is infiltrat­ing several political parties.

And the former vice president, had alleged that some parties would be giving 50 million and all of that, though the APC denied it. But now, for exam­ple, in other political parties, we are having problems where nobody knows who is the national secretary of the PDP at the moment. In the Labour Party also, nobody knows who is chairman.

And so people have to run away from these parties because they don’t know who is going to sign, whether INEC will recog­nize the papers that have been signed belong to this person or not. Would you blame APC truly for this, based on the accusations against them? No, I would not blame APC. The polit­ical parties are refusing to actually put their hands on all that.

They are coming to the real fact. If I have a house I built and then somebody comes from outside and wants to cause trouble for me in the house, can I allow that trouble? Who do you blame? APC. You blame me, the own­er of the house.

I don’t blame the APC at all. Let them fix their houses and that. I just told you, the PDP is paying for its own nemesis of what they did in 2015.

You can’t eat your cake and have it. People also blame Atiku Abubakar and say that he too also defected in 2016 from the APC. But that is what I’m telling you.

You see, that’s why I say there is no party su­premacy in this part of the world, in this part of our country. You will find, look at John Mahama of Ghana. He lost the elec­tion under, NDC.

He never defected any­where. He stayed and built and contest­ed again and again and got it this time. That’s what we call loyalty.

We’re giving it a better name, calling it defection..